I've said this before and let me say it again. Jesus did not need to die for our sins out of any need of God but merely because our own lack of imagination rendered us unable grasp God's love for us.
I think the spiral dynamics model provides a clue as why the idea of Penal Substitution has gained so much momentum. The key is the breadth of awareness in my love. At the first stage (quests 1-3) my love is all about me – Egocentric. At the second stage I barter with you and have a sense of equality in our relationship - Ethnocentric. At the third stage I love as I want connection with you - Worldcentric. At the forth stage I love because it is who I am and it is what I do – Spiritcentric. I love love at this level.
Most of church exists at quest four – Search for Ultimate Peace – Order. In the main the churches loves in a bartering relationship – we may see evidence of this on a weekly basis.
So for me it is not surprising that a church that is principally ordered around bartering relationships projects that level of awareness onto God.
What absolutely astounds me is that Jesus loved us so much that he dies unnecessarily just to penetrate our limited quest 4 perspectives just so we could know the Father. That my friends is the real meaning of the cross.
11 comments:
Yes, He gave us what we wanted. The ultimate gift from the ultimate giver!
Ya Thoughtful. Absolutely correct. I had a similar revelation some time ago. I came to it after asking God "hey if you are so big and loving etc, why not just let every one off the hook without sacrafice or without anyone having to pay for anything?" later on I was meditating on the fall when Adam and Eve suddenly found themselves "naked" and God said "who told you you were naked?". Who really did tell them, no-one, they came to it themselves. They were naked one minute and loving it and the next thing they had a complex over it. What happened was (and we read this in that book known as the New testament) that their conscience's became seared as with a hot iron as they had become infected with the knowledge of good and evil. So, after that, the guilt was so severe and their own need for justice, payback, revenge etc, became such a driving force that only blood would suffice to satisy their own warped sense of righteousness. So God gave them what they wanted - the perfect bloody sacrafice, the God of the universe Himself gave himself to man in the form of his dear, dear son, bruised and bloodied just to satisfy our crooked conscience. Oh what a God of love we have, oh how unfathomable his love, how grateful I am to have seen him and known his dear, dear touch...lovely jesus....
I'd go along with you guys too! The cross was a 'physical' demonstration of truths that had always existed. Our redemption had always been built into the nature of creation and if we'd only realised we could have picked up on this gift and then cleaned the whole place up long ago.
But what do we do? We make a flaming great useless religion out of what Jesus demonstrated and worship imaginary things in the sky.
It's tragic!
Brian (foxtrot_delta from the Ooze)
I agree with you that the cross has been preached man-centered and I personally believe the cross is God-centered. It is all about Him. God did it because he willed it.
What about sacrifice? There is so much to say here. There are endless scriptures of God designing everything. He was the perfect lamb. There is so much to consider here.
In Him
Lori
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How can you say this was necessary when the bible says "Without the shedding of blood there can be no remiscen (spelling) of sins." in light of "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." or "I am the way the Truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through Me." "Without Faith it is impossible to please God."
Folks it was God's Holiness and Christ being the perfect Sacrifice that made it necessary for Christ to die on the cross. God's Holiness is part of His omniscience and omnipotence. One cannot be either one without being Holy. If Christ wouldn't have died and rose again from the cross, Paul mentions "...we would still be dead in our trespass of sins." Christ dies to make the way for Salvation and to make the gift available to all who are willing to receive it. It is our choice "Without Faith it is impossible to please God." "Except a man be Born Again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that god has risen from the dead you shall be saved." "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind..." dh
bruced... coool ;o)..
simon... I am thinking that the God who dies for no reason is more loving than the God who dies as he ineptly created a universe where he had to... like your thoughts...
brian... agree it is a shame about the religion... also I wonder if has it's place as a cog in the overall process of growing?...
lori... thanks for the comment... I think I was saying that we've made the cross God centred when in fact it is all about man... and God's love... not sure if I am communicating?
DH.. welcome back... just wondering what the point of your post is? is it to pursuade someone to change their mind... if so you may find that most of the folks who would read this have their own personal faith so appealing to an external authority source to change them might not be very effective... when I read your comments I usually just smile and move on...
thanks for reading and commenting guys... peace DM
It may be appealing but is it correct in light of Scripture?
What is your thoughts on the Scriptures mentioned? Show me from Scripture that Christ dying on the cross wasn't necessary in light of the Scriptures mentioned? How can one say there was no reason when the Bible is implicite in the reason why? I'm trying to show from Scripture how God truly shows us His purpose. We shouldn't take the message of God as foolish when the Bible states the reason for His death and resurrection.
I don't see anywhere in Scripture that shows no purpose for Christs death and resurrection and I was just showing you in Scripture not from me what it says. dh
Maybe you don't want to deal with the conviction of your sin so therefore you have the idea that Christs death was no purpose? Just wondering the reason for believing that Christ's death was no purpose. Your post has no confirmation with Scripture at all. dh
Jesus dying on the cross 20 centuries ago wasn't really necessary for our redemption. It was a demonstration to show us that the 'atonement' had already been done and to encourage us to accept it. "The lamb slain since the foundation of the world."
Check John Ch.18 from verse 36.
Here is our Jesus being interrogated by Pilate after being captured by the Romans. This is taking place in front of an angry mob of Old Testament believing Jews who are accusing him of leading their people into religious error. Pilate has just queried him about being the king of the Jews and Jesus is explaining to him that he is a king, but that his kingdom, or authority, is not sourced from within this physical realm otherwise his servants would be fighting for him. And then he confesses, “And for this I have come into the world, to bear witness (to show evidence) of the truth.”
Have we polarised our understandings around the historical features of his sacrifice, made a great unwieldy religion out of it, and come up with the wrong practical conclusions? Have we been trying to draw the power for our redemption from out of the wrong realm? And a realm limited by time and space too. Yes, I think so. By intellectually focussing on the physical aspects it’s kept us in our heads and away from the spirit within our hearts. “It is the spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing,” says JC. “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”
So as you should see if we put our faith in the physical actions of the Jesus of 2000 years ago through an intellectual 'belief' system it won't work. That's a dead religion - just theory. It's like believing the moon is made out of green cheese! We have to connect with the living truth - the spirit within us. That makes it real and bypasses the time limitations and then big things can really happen. We haven't started yet!
Brian - FD
Evidence of the Truth is that God knew before hand what He actually did on the cross. All of these Scriptures you reference refer to God's forknowledge of what actually takes place 2000 years ago. "Without the shedding of blood there can be no remiscin (spelling) of sins." dh
I agree it is Spiritual but there is the "witness" in the natural of the Spiritual atonement that is received by Faith in Christs death and resurrection. dh
This isn't mans but God's dh
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